December 6, 2009

The One Where I Get All Philosophical

I've noticed that a pattern is beginning to develop as far as Sunday mornings go. After church is over, I am hesitant to get up and move about and talk to people. Not because I'm lazy, or transfixed, or scared. It's because I'm deep in thought, and I once I start down the path of asking myself all these questions, I don't want to have to interrupt myself.

It's probably a good thing that I'm not allowed to sit and be antisocial and introspective, because the questions that always come up on Sunday mornings are sobering. I always leave church in a state of solemnity, and I don't really like it. I'm not comfortable with all these thoughts and questions that invade my mind every week. Probably because I don't have any answers. Here are some of the topics swirling around in my brain today.


Homosexuals


Let me start by saying that I believe the Bible is very clear on this topic. God says that homosexuality is a sin. I also think that homosexuality is a sin. So there's no problem there. The thing I'm uncomfortable with is what my pastor said one morning. He made it clear that our church accepts homosexuals. He didn't say whether or not our church condones the practice of homosexuality. But he did say he wanted our church to be known as the church that doesn't turn them away.

So it go me thinking: do other churches turn homosexuals away? Are homosexuals even interested in going to church? Is this even an issue? Why would a gay or lesbian person want to attend church? They know that churches contain Christians, and Christians condemn that lifestyle. So why would they even darken a church door? And if our church makes a point of inviting them to be a part of our gathering, then does that mean that my church thinks that homosexuality is okay?

And what happens if we actually did have homosexuals in our church? Would we have to make a disclaimer every Sunday, saying that we love them and that God loves them, but we really hope they turn from that lifestyle? And what about those verses in the New Testament about church members who blatantly and defiantly live in sin? The church leaders are supposed to talk to them in private and ask them to repent, and if that person does not, they are asked to leave the church.

Christians are supposed to be light and love to all people, but we also can't ignore sin. How do we reconcile the two? Where is the line?


Justice

This one is even more difficult to wrap my brain around, because it's more vague a concept. I hear that word a lot in church, and I have to confess, I don't really know what it means. So I looked it up in the dictionary. It has to do with being good, fair, right or righteous, and honorable. Doing the right thing, following and upholding the law.

Then I looked up justice in a concordance, to see what the Bible has to say about it. The Old Testament laws have a lot to say about not perverting justice, or denying someone of justice. It also admonishes kings and leaders to make sure to administer justice, and not turn ignore wrong-doing. But the Bible also says that ultimately, it is God who brings justice.

Our church makes it clear that one of our purposes is to bring justice to our community. And you know what? I really don't know how to do that. Am I not promoting justice by following the law? Is there more to it than that? I am not a judge or a cop. I cannot make others obey the law. How do I bring justice to others? Does that mean that I go out and punish whoever has done them wrong? What if they did themselves wrong?

I feel like whenever people talk about bringing justice to the world, or to a community, they are specifically referring to poor people. How does one bring justice to a poor person? Are the majority of poor people in their present financial situation because someone else made them poor? And if someone made them poor, is there someone who is also keeping them poor? And if so, how do we fix that?

I'll be honest. I think that the whole "justice for poor people" is a flawed, liberal idea that says it's our job to get poor people out of there poverty. I'm all for charity, and helping someone in need, but I don't think you can make a poor person rich just by giving them money, or buying them a house, or a car, or whatever.

If a person is irresponsible with their finances, or they are holding onto an addiction or habit that ties up their income, then poverty isn't the real problem. The problem is that they are choosing irresponsibility and sin, instead of taking care of their needs.

Of course we need to love those people, and we should try to help them, but you can only go so far. If they don't want help, or if they want someone else to pick up the slack for them, then we shouldn't be enabling their crooked thinking and living by continuing to give them money.

Again I say: where is the line? Should we continue buying groceries for someone who is already receiving welfare from the government for groceries, but they spend most of that money on cigarettes and alcohol? God tells us not to forget the widows and the poor. But how can we bring justice to someone who has brought injustice on themselves?


Oppression


There is one song that we sing in our church that talks about how we are all "city lights." We are to bring light to every dark corner of the world. One of the lines in that song says that we must shine for "the rich who still oppress." And it ties in with the whole justice idea. But I fear that it's just another liberal line, that poor people are poor because they are oppressed by rich people. And rich people are rich because they are greedy and oppressive.

I had to look this word up in the dictionary as well, because I didn't have a clear sense of what it meant. The first definition by Merriam-Webster is: to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority. Now I know that money is power. But I feel like a lot of people hate those who are wealthy because they think that the wealthy got to that place by stepping on everyone below them.

I thought that wealth was gained by good, old-fashioned hard work, saving, discipline, and smart investing. Do these things oppress? I think not. So how does a rich person oppress? Do they flaunt their wealth to those less fortunate? Do they make a habit of employing people to work for them, and then not pay them enough?

Also, what defines wealth? How much money does a person have to have before they are considered rich? And what does this have to do with oppression? Can one be oppressive simply through inaction? By not being charitable with the money they've earned, are they oppressing poor people? Where do these ideas come from?


Now, I love my church. They are trying their hardest to make a difference in our city by meeting practical needs, and it shows. But every once in a while, they say these things that make me uncomfortable, because I don't know exactly what they mean by them.

What do they mean when they say that we are a gay-loving church? What do they mean when they say our mission is to bring justice to the poor? What do they mean when they say we need to shine for rich people who oppress? And should I be okay with these things? Are these Biblical ideas?

And what if they are wrong? Does it matter? Is all the good work that they are doing negated by a few flawed beliefs? Are these deal breakers?

I struggle with these thoughts every Sunday when I come away from a church service. And I'm not any closer to figuring them out. I'm not specifically asking you for the answers, but you are free to chime in if you want.

13 comments:

Mom said...

Wow Jenene...I didnt't know you were asking all these questions. I guess it's probably a good thing to question some things instead of believing everything you hear in church or from the pulpit. Making sure something is not anti-scripture is a good thing too. I think the whole "loving gays" thing is not condoning their lifestyle but loving the person behind the lifestyle. If the person truly wants to know the truth the Holy Spirit would convict them don't you think? As far as the rich oppressing the poor...I'm not sure what that exactly would mean. Not all rich people fall into this category. I suppose being rich and stingy would be oppressing the poor. Have you thought of asking the pastor of the church if you and Art could meet with him to talk about some of these issues? As far as helping the poor...I think we need to be open and obey the Holy Spirit as he directs us as to how to help the poor. Sometimes buying them a meal is a way of showing Jesus's love to them. Anyways these are some of my thoughts. What does Art have to say about these issues?

Anonymous said...

by asking if a gay or lesbian would want to come to church, it sounds as if you are asking if they are allowed to be christians. who, then, is allowed to be a christian? Jesus also said to love your neighbor as yourself, and i believe that the preaching love part of the bible should override the part that condemns sin. isn't one of the premises of christianity forgiveness?

Kat said...

Those are definitely some thought-provoking questions.
I've thought about the homosexual issue before too. It's hard because on one hand you want to welcome and accept everyone, but on the other you don't want that love and acceptance to come accross as condoning the sin. At the same time, are churches also correcting other people who live in sin? People sleeping around, people lying, cheating, etc.?
Also, the love of God is important to preach, but people fixate too much on that. What about the God of the Old Testament? Or the God who struck down Ananias and Saphira?
Oh man, I could probably keep talking about this a long time :) I better go or else you're going to have a novel to read for a comment.

Jenene said...

Dear Anonymous

Though I have wondered if gays and lesbians are allowed to be Christians, that's not what I was asking about in this post. I just wondered if a homosexual would even WANT to attend church, knowing that the church/Christians/the Bible/God believes that homosexuality is a sin.

I don't think it's up to us to tell active homosexuals whether or not they can be Christians. That's between them and God.

And you are right, Jesus did say to love our neighbors as ourselves. But loving a person does not mean that you accept, promote, or condone their sin.

[As an aside, no part of the Bible overrides any other part of the Bible. God does not contradict Himself. Therefore, His Word does not contradict Itself.]

Finally, forgivness does not make sinning okay. Forgiveness is a gift from God. It means that God does not stop loving us just because we have sinned. (Or, that we don't harbor hate in our heart if someone has sinned against us)

But sin is still wrong, and all sinners must repent of their sin. Jesus did not condemn the adulterous woman to death, but he also told her to sin no more.

I hope I clarified a few things for you. And please know this: I am a Christian, but I am also a human, so I'm not perfect. I'm growing in my faith, but I will never have all the answers. I too must wrestle sometimes with what I believe.

Libbers said...

Isn't homosexuality just another part of the human sin nature? We all have it. We ALL sin, ALL the time. I hate that some people are judged simply because of one particular part of their sin nature. It is NOT right. We're supposed to love everyone. Will we turn people away from the church if they're prostitutes? How about drug addicts? Drunks? Thieves? How about someone who lives perfectly except that they lie occasionally?

Who is the gospel for?!

"When Jesus heard this, he told them, "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners." Mark 2:17.

You and I are no different from homosexuals. That might be really hard for you to hear and you might not agree with me, and that's fine.

There should be no "we" vs. "them." It makes me sick to my stomach to think of all the hatred and cruelty perpetrated on gay people by those who call themselves Christians. It's not what we're called to do. The Great Commandment tells us to love one another. Just keep it simple. Don't get caught up in the "oh, but they're actively homosexual.. they don't belong here with us" thinking. I'm not saying that that's YOU exactly, but it sure is a heck of a lot of church-goers' thoughts. Gay people have been trampled on for as long as the world is old. Can we please show them the love of God? They need Him just as much as we do. Let the Holy Spirit convict them of any of their sins, the way He does for you.

And on another note, I'm glad you're thinking about these things. It's important to have strong beliefs, and struggling to find them is the path to strength later on.

Jenene said...

Hey Libby

I didn't mean to sound like homosexuals don't belong in church. I just wondered why they would want to come to church.

Most homosexuals see nothing wrong with their lifestyle. Christianity says that homosexuality is wrong. Why would they want to be around Christians?

They are welcome at our church. I just don't see why they would want to be there.

I'm also trying to figure out the balance between loving all people the way God loves them, but also not ignoring their sin. The Bible does say that we are supposed to confront Christians about their sin.

It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict people about their sin. But we can't just stand back and not ever say anything.

Also, there is a difference between people who sin, and people who blatantly live a lifestyle of sin and aren't even trying to get out of it (alcoholism, drug addiction, prostitution, promiscuity, homosexuality, serial killers, etc).

These are just some more thoughts that I had as I'm trying to work my way through this.

Libbers said...

I totally know where you're coming from and understand it. Somehow, I understand homosexuals as well, I think. The reason they would want to go to church is pretty simple... They are trying to find God. You have to know that almost 100% of gay people would argue that it is not a choice for them, and whether or not we agree with that, we have to understand their thoughts on the matter. They see themselves as imperfect people who need God... the ones who come to church, that is. And obviously they know what they're coming up against and they DO know what the Bible says about it.. which makes it that much harder for them, I think, to show up at a church.

The personal struggle that someone who is gay would go through to come to a church where they know they will be welcomed (maybe,) but not truly accepted (most likely,) is staggering. I know what you're saying about us not ignoring sin, and YES, you are right about that. It is in the Bible.. but then so are other passages like, Judge not lest you be so judged.

Maybe it's just a balance.. I don't know. We all just have to try and do what is right.. which is also the thing about justice that you were talking about.. I think. We have to take the high roads, but not the holier-than-thou roads. :) Justice is about doing what's right, but more than that, treating people fairly.

And you should know that this is not directed towards YOU.. it's just my general thoughts on the matter. I hate knowing people personally.. including three of my siblings, who have left the Church and all but abandoned the whole concept of God entirely, based on some assholes who call themselves Christians. We should all try and love people just a little bit more. And I am so glad that you're thinking through this stuff. It's so important. :)

Honestly, when you put yourself in a gay person's shoes, if you can, you might see the personal struggle that they're going through, and no matter what they seem like on the outside, inwardly they're desperately searching for God. Jesus invites ALL of us to Him, and no matter who the person is, if they want that, then they should run after it. THAT would be the reason they would come to church. :)

Raycol said...

While the Bible does prohibit sex between men (homosexuality), it can nevertheless be shown that the prohibition does not apply today when the sexual activity causes no harm. Also the prohibition does not apply today because it applied only to the ancient Israelite and Roman cultures. The Bible criticizes, but does not prohibit, sex between women. Full reasons for these conclusions are given on the Gay and Christian website (www.gaysandslaves.com).

Jenene said...

Dear Raycol

I would like to be clear that, though I struggle with some concepts that I would label "gray areas", the truth of the Bible is not one of them. It speaks for itself.

It was written thousands of years ago, but it still applies today. Truth does not change with time, nor does God, nor does His word. Hebrews 4:12 says that "The Word of God is living and active..." It applies for all time, both the "feel good" parts, and the parts that make us uncomfortable, or cause us to have questions.

Callie said...

Hmm, these are some in-depth subjects, Jenene. I think it's okay for a church to try to show Christ's love to gay people, but I don't think homosexuals should be allowed to join the church (as in become a member or participate in any service opportunities). You are right about that passage of Scripture that talks about confronting a church member about their sin, and I don't think homosexuals should be allowed to be members unless they are Christians, and if they are Christians then they can't continue in that sin. That's my opinion.
As for the whole justice for poor people thing, I think some Christians tend to lean toward socialism that way, and i don't like it. Charity is a wonderful thing, but the government shouldn't support those who won't support themselves, and we shouldn't constantly let people throw the money we give them away either. There is a line, but where to draw it is the hard part. I think the church should step up and take a more active role in helping those who are poor, but the government sure shouldn't get involved. At the same time, if we (the church) are to help the poor, I think it's important to get them out of those habits that are making them poor (poor financial management, alcohol or drug abuse, etc.). It's like that old proverb about giving a man a fish and feeding him for a day, or teaching a man to fish and feeding him for the rest of his life. We need to teach them to fish first, and maybe just share some of our fish until they learn how to do it themselves.

By the way, I agree with Art's conclusion from the Christmas card, and if you guys are ever out our way, by all means, shoot me an e-mail and you guys can come over and play with our dogs! :-)

Callie said...

Oh yes, and I also resent the implication that if a person is rich then they must be oppressing the poor. People get rich through hard work, like you said, and they don't have to oppress anybody to get there. I just don't like that attitude. I would probably be having those "deep-in-thought" sessions if I was slammed with that every Sunday too.
Stay strong, Friend. I think your thinking is right on these topics.

Callie said...

When I say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to join the church, what I mean is they shouldn't be allowed to become members or serve in any leadership positions. If they want to come to church to try to learn more about the Lord and Christianity, then by all means, let them come! Just wanted to clarify.

Laura said...

I also agree that that song about "the rich oppressing the poor" sounds like an Obama-camp anthem. The rich are that way through hard work or because God decided to bless them, and the poor are that way because God decided to bless them in another way-- "the meek shall inherit the earth." The idea that charity equates "justice" is one that encourages poor people to not take personal responsibility--to act and think as if it not their fault, and that it is someone else's responsibility to get them out of it. The proper attitude would be one of humbleness, willing to work diligently to better their situation. I believe in helping people learn how to better their situation, not just merely making them dependent on me for handouts. Welfare and socialism are all in the name of "justice"-- and are the backbone of crumbling societies, where no one takes personal responsibility to work and feed their families. I think you are very right to be asking these questions about your church, and as a fellow believer, I would seriously encourage you to find a church that has more biblical principles of what society and church should be.